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Nov 28 VH
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Asellus



Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 865
Location: Sonoma County, CA, USA

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storm_norm,

Personally, I usually don't consider ERs until after I believe I've exhausted the possible usual suspects, such as X-Wings and other fish (including finned) and XY(Z) Wings and Skyscrapers and such.

An ER is, essentially, a right-angle "mirror" that allows some Cell(s) to "see" some Cell(s) elsewhere that it/they wouldn't otherwise see. In the simple classic ER example, the mirror exposes a Cell to both ends of a strong link. Once this is mastered, one sees that these mirrors have other uses, such as "reflecting" fish fins to other locations, or reflecting an XY Wing/Chain Pincer elsewhere. Two or more of these mirrors can be lined up to reflect cells all over the place, including back onto themselves in a self-destructive way! They can have all sorts of uses. (That's what I meant in my comment that has been so flatteringly quoted above.)

The original term "Hinge" is easier to grasp. As Marty says, an ER is just a Box in which a candidate is limited to just two lines. He should have added: two perpendicular lines, one Row segment and one Column segment.

It is possible to use these mirrors without thinking about their internal workings. However, if you want to do so, then they can be seen as an example of grouped coloring strong links: the Row segment is strongly linked with the Column segment. If the cell at the Hinge intersection point contains the candidate of interest, then the link is strongly inferential (rather than conjugate). However, this doesn't matter since we use the mirror to reflect cells that have their effect if they are true. (If you don't understand these last remarks, don't worry. It is just inference logic stuff. If you do understand, then you will have some idea how an ER can be used in an AIC.)

In any case, welcome to sudoku life A.E.R. (After Empty Rectangles)!
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DennyOR



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 33
Location: Portland, Oregon

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marty,

I don't see the W-Wing in boxes 1 and 2. Would you mind giving a more detailed explanation.
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Marty R.



Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DennyOR wrote:
Marty,

I don't see the W-Wing in boxes 1 and 2. Would you mind giving a more detailed explanation.


Code:
+--------------------------+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 2          7       *68   | 4          *36      38   | 9          1      5     |
| 89         469      3    | 5           1       29   | 24         7      468   |
| 1          5        4689 | 68          7       29   | 234        46     3468  |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 7          49       5    | 2           49      6    | 8          3      1     |
| 6          24       1    | 38          35      358  | 7          24     9     |
| 3          8        249  | 1           49      7    | 5          246    46    |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 59er       1 er     69   | 367         2       345  | 34         8      347   |
| 58         26       268  | 367         35-[6]  345  | 1          9      347   |
| 4 er       3 er     7    | 9           8       1    | 6          5      2     |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+-------------------------+


Look at the 68 pairs in r1c3 and r3c4.

Also note the only two occurrences of 6 in row 7 each see one of the two 68 cells. Since the two pairs are linked by the 6s, that means that the 8s act as pincers. I guess the "rule" is that when two cells with identical pairs, not in the same house, are connected by a strong link, then the the other digit in the two pairs act as pincers.

The bottom line is that I can't explain this technique very well. Someone will probably be along who can do a better job.

(Edited 11-30, 1:10 a.m.)

Denny, this is where this technique was first discussed here:

http://www.dailysudoku.co.uk/sudoku/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1914
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DennyOR



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 33
Location: Portland, Oregon

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Marty. I was only looking for W-wings where the common number was in the third row or column in the two boxes with the common pair, like the original example on this site.
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storm_norm



Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1741

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asellus,

ok, so if the ER is there, why not take it, right? if it sticks out like a sore thumb. it would take me a few more examples to really get a feel for looking for them. I totally understand its usefullness.

i am sure you have noticed that in the last year, the very hards have evolved. they use to be very hard if they needed a massive onslaught of naked pairs to complete it. in the last year or so it has moved into deeper waters, Laughing more fish.

I would love to start a topic about solving patterns. these very hards don't require an exclusive path to the end. i would argue that some solving paths are actually harder than others.

for example: I find an x-wing as my first move.
the next person finds an xy-wing as their first move.

now bear with me,

I would argue and theorize that the state of the puzzle ( the solved cells up to that point ), after the x-wing, is different than the state of the puzzle after the xy-wing.

therefore, depending on what move you make first, the puzzle after that move, actually changes rating.

As you fill in cells, the puzzle's rating fluctuates from move to move.

example:

lets say an x-wing leads to a series of singles before the next major move. the puzzle is definitely in an easier state after the x-wing, than before it. then at the point where you need the next major move, the puzzle now takes on a higher rating because at this point you need that harder move.

anybony who's done easy puzzle after easy puzzle knows what I am talking about. there is that one point in a puzzle where it goes from being easy, kind of easy to hard, then back to being easy.

I'd love to find out if anyone agrees or disagrees about this.

and I would love to find out if this "subjective feel" for a puzzle is called something.

norm
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nataraj



Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 1048
Location: near Vienna, Austria

PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storm_norm wrote:

As you fill in cells, the puzzle's rating fluctuates from move to move.


While I agree that different moves change the solution path in different ways, I do not believe that the rating "fluctuates" at all.

Every solved cell, every single elimination of a candidate from a cell, can only REDUCE the difficulty of the puzzle (or leave it at the same level) but never increase it.

So, the question really is, how deep was the cut? How much soil did I remove to expose the treasure underneath? Or in a more mathematical flavor: how steep was the solving curve?

Having said that, I agree with your observation that sometimes the puzzle feels easy (nice going ...) and then again, we're stuck. And yes, it depends a lot on the path taken.
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ravel



Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 536

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storm_norm wrote:
if you are looking at johan's example, concentrate on row 7. there are only two places in that row that a 9 can be placed...

I am not quite happy with this explanation, because for an xy-wing a strong link is not needed. It also would work, if you had more 9's in the row.

In this example you have 2 xy-wings without this property:
Code:
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
 | 4     18   -57    | 1678  2     9     | 3    #58    5678  |
 | 1578  6     9     | 1378  1378  18    | 148   2     4578  |
 | 1278  138   237   | 5     1678  4     | 18    9     678   |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 78    5     47    | 9     148   18    | 2     6     3     |
 | 3     48    26    | 78    578   26    | 9     458   1     |
 | 26    9     1     | 268   4568  3     | 48    7     458   |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 15    2    #35    | 4     138   7     | 6    #38    9     |
 | 9     7     346   | 238  @38    26    | 5     1    @48    |
 | 16    134   8     | 1-36  9     5     | 7    @34    2     |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
The #-xy-wing eliminates the 5 in r1c3. But you have 3 8's in column 8 and 3 3's in row 7.
The @-xy-wing eliminates 3 in r9c4, but you have 3 8's in row 8.

The simple point is, that the 2 numbers in the "pivot" cell (here r7c8 and r8c9) force the same number in different cells (in r7c8 the 3 forces 5 to be in r7c3 and 8 to be in r1c8, in r8c9 the 4 forces 3 to be in r8c7 and 8 to be in r8c5).
I.e. this number has to be either here or there. Therefore cells, that "see" both cells, cannot have it (r1c3 sees both r1c8 and r7c3, r9c456 and r8c789 see both r8c5 and r9c8).

Another topic is, how to effectively find xy-wings. Here is a good old thread.
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re'born



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nataraj wrote:

Every solved cell, every single elimination of a candidate from a cell, can only REDUCE the difficulty of the puzzle (or leave it at the same level) but never increase it.

While I agree with you in principle, in practice I think the rating can increase from a human point of view. For instance, in this thread from the player's forum, RW introduces the Hidden BUG pattern. If you look for this pattern, it is not difficult to spot and in the puzzle he provides, the application of the pattern solves the puzzle immediately. However, if you apply another technique first (in this case an xy-wing as I pointed out here) then it becomes very difficult to see that a Hidden BUG would still apply to the grid. Without the Hidden BUG move, the difficulty of the puzzle increases. Now, the response that one can still apply the Hidden BUG after the xy-wing is true, but at any rate, finding that Hidden BUG move sure got a lot harder, thus increasing the effective difficulty.
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nataraj



Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 1048
Location: near Vienna, Austria

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

re'born wrote:
...after the xy-wing [...], finding that Hidden BUG move sure got a lot harder, thus increasing the effective difficulty.


Hm, point taken, re'born. For some people like me, though, the difficulty level would remain the same as I've not yet started searching for hidden bugs... Very Happy (and I always thought only programmers and exterminators had to do that)

When I compared solving a sudoku to digging up a treasure I should have realized that clearing the ground and removing the big red "X" ("X marks the spot, remember?) actually makes the treasure hunt much more difficult.
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