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Hopelessly stuck

 
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Marty R.



Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:56 am    Post subject: Hopelessly stuck Reply with quote

This is my classic nightmare of a puzzle: few bivalue cells, loads of four- and five-candidate cells and I can't eliminate a thing.

Code:

+-----------------+-----------------+----------------+
| 6    1238  138  | 2349  7    249  | 5    149   12  |
| 23   5     4    | 1     23   89   | 789  789   6   |
| 12   9     7    | 24568 2456 2458 | 248  148   3   |
+-----------------+-----------------+----------------+
| 139  136   2    | 3579  8    1579 | 37   3567  4   |
| 5    13468 1368 | 2347  1234 1247 | 2378 3678  9   |
| 7    348   389  | 23459 2345 6    | 1    358   258 |
+-----------------+-----------------+----------------+
| 8    1367  1369 | 4567  1456 1457 | 349  2     15  |
| 1249 127   19   | 24578 1245 3    | 6    14589 158 |
| 1234 1236  5    | 2468  9    1248 | 348  1348  7   |
+-----------------+-----------------+----------------+

Play this puzzle online at the Daily Sudoku site
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nataraj



Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 1048
Location: near Vienna, Austria

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neither coloring nor Medusa seem to help ...

Where'd you find this baby?


Edit: I let Andrew Stuart's Sudoku Solver take a shot at it.

"Death Blossom" and - get this - "Bowman Bingo"
I'd say just a wee bit above my head Very Happy
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Marty R.



Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Where'd you find this baby?


This is from Paul's Pages, rated Outlaw, Gallery puzzle #81.

http://www.paulspages.co.uk/sudoku/

These puzzle are inconsistent, like most others are, but generally are fairly difficult, but this is ridiculous.
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storm_norm



Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1741

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

S.E. ===> 8.9 !!!
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Marty R.



Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storm_norm wrote:
S.E. ===> 8.9 !!!

OK, I'll bite, what's that supposed to mean? Question
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keith



Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 3355
Location: near Detroit, Michigan, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the rating from Sudoku Explainer.

Keith
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Marty R.



Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

keith wrote:
This is the rating from Sudoku Explainer.

Keith

I assume a rating of 10 is the most difficult? Does anyone know what a typical VH from here would rate?
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storm_norm



Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1741

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marty R. wrote:
keith wrote:
This is the rating from Sudoku Explainer.

Keith

I assume a rating of 10 is the most difficult? Does anyone know what a typical VH from here would rate?


actually the hardest found go over 11 on sudoku explainer's rating scale.

depending on how fast your computer is, the puzzles that go above a 10 will take the explainer an extremely long time to analyze. I have read where a pentium 4 type processor took a good 8 hours to analyze a 10.6 or so puzzle.

since all the VH puzzles here can be solved with x, xy, xyz-wings, then the ratings probably wouldn't go above a 5.0

the explainer does not see w-wings, ER, or finned x-wings.

instead, SE categorizes xy-chians, turbot fish, kites, skyscrapers, and color wraps/traps all as a subcategory of forcing chains. a single forcing chain needed to solve a puzzle gives the puzzle at least a 7.0

this is just a tad misleading because there are puzzles that require 13 forcing chains that get a rating of 7.2 and then there are some that require 3 forcing chains that get the same rating.

APE, UR, Jellyfish, Swordfish, naked quad, hidden quad and BUG all get a rating below 7.0.
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ravel



Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 536

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can find the SE rating scale here. So VH's would get a rating of 4.2 or 4.4 (like the one by gsf i just posted), but these puzzles also might require a hidden triple (naked something) or a swordfish.

Only a few puzzles with rating above say 7.5 can be solved in an elegant way (for my taste), most of them are pure chaining work.
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Marty R.



Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that information.
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Asellus



Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 865
Location: Sonoma County, CA, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well... after staring at this thing for quite a while, my attention was drawn to some ALSs and grouped links that looked as if they might have potential. Some complex multi-branched AICs later, I managed to eliminated some <1>s. This comes mighty close to forcing... so close many won't see any difference. But, I was led there by those patterns and not just a wild stab in the dark. Still... elegant, it is not!

Because of all the branching, I will break the AICs up into separate fragments and label them with letters in brackets.

[A] (1=2)r3c1
[B] from A: (2)r3c1-(2)r3c7=(2)r1c9-(2)r6c9=(2)r5c7
[C] from A: (2)r3c1-(2=3)r2c1-(3)r2c5=(3)r1c4
[D] from C: (3)r1c4-(3=2)r2c5
[E] from B & D: (2)r2c5|r5c7-(2)r5c456|r9c4=(2)r6c4
[F] from D & E: (2)r2c5|r6c4-(2)r8c45|r9c4=(2)r9c6
[G] from A & F: (2)r3c1|r9c6-(2)r89c1|r9c2=(2-7)r8c2=(7)r7c2-(7)r7c46=(7)r8c4
[H] from C, G & E: (2)r6c4|(3)r1c4|(7)r8c4-({237}=4)r5c4-(4)r5c2=(4)r6c2
[I] from E & H: (2)r6c4|(4)r6c2-({24}={358})r6c589-({38}=9)r6c3-(9=1)r8c3

Thus, we have the following strong inference: (1)r3c1=(1)r8c3
and
r1c3|r89c1<>1

It doesn't appear to be of all that much help in moving forward. But, at least it's something.
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keith



Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 3355
Location: near Detroit, Michigan, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Asellus wrote:
Well... after staring at this thing for quite a while, ...


Well, Sudoku Susser starts with these hints:

R1C4<>9 (Implied by all valid values of R4C1)
R7C2<>1 (Implied by all valid values of R7C2)
R1C3<>1 (Implied by all R6=2 squares)
R1C4<>9 (Implied by all R4=1 squares)
R4C1<>3 (Implied by all B9=4 squares)
R6C4<>3 (Implied by all B9=4 squares)
R7C2<>1 (Implied by all R5=1 squares)
R8C1<>1 (Implied by all R6=2 squares)
R8C2<>1 (Implied by all R5=1 squares)
R9C1<>1 (Implied by all R6=2 squares)

Keith
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nataraj



Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 1048
Location: near Vienna, Austria

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

keith wrote:
Asellus wrote:
Well... after staring at this thing for quite a while, ...


Well, Sudoku Susser starts with these hints:

R1C4<>9 (Implied by all valid values of R4C1)
R7C2<>1 (Implied by all valid values of R7C2)
R1C3<>1 (Implied by all R6=2 squares)
R1C4<>9 (Implied by all R4=1 squares)
R4C1<>3 (Implied by all B9=4 squares)
R6C4<>3 (Implied by all B9=4 squares)
R7C2<>1 (Implied by all R5=1 squares)
R8C1<>1 (Implied by all R6=2 squares)
R8C2<>1 (Implied by all R5=1 squares)
R9C1<>1 (Implied by all R6=2 squares)

Keith


and would there also be one among us to translate Suss into English ?

Quote:

R1C4<>9 (Implied by all valid values of R4C1)

sure man, plain as day...
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ravel



Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 536

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its easy to see it for r4c1=1 and r4c1=9:
r4c1=1 => r3c1=2 => r2c1=3 => r2c5<>3 => r1c4=3 => r1c4<>9
r4c1=9 => r4c46<>9 => r6c4=9 => r1c4<>9

But i had some troubles to see, why r4c1=3 should imply r1c4<>9. My first attempt ended in an empty cell Sad
r4c1=3 => [r4c7=7 and (r8c1=9 => r8c8<>9 => r7c7=9)] => r2c7=8 => r2c6=9

And the elimination is not very useful ...
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nataraj



Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 1048
Location: near Vienna, Austria

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, ravel! At least now I understand what susser is trying to say.

I can only guess at the method susser uses to arrive at these conclusions.

In comparison, "Bowman Bingo" at least has a cute name.
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Asellus



Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 865
Location: Sonoma County, CA, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It didn't surprise me that those <1> eliminations are related to <2>s: the AICs I listed are filled with <2>s, including all those of r6. (When pointed out after the fact, I can see how the 3 <2>s of r6 all lead to the <1> eliminations. But, I can't see any way to find such things other than explicit trial and error.)

After much more staring at this thing, I have found a rather simpler branched AIC that is useful:

[A]: ALS[(8)r8c9=(1)r78c9]
[B] from A: (1)r78c9-(1=2)r1c9-(2)r1c2=(2)r23c1
[C] from A & B: (1)r78c9|(2)r23c1-ALS[({12}={348})r9c178]-(8)r9c46=(8)r8c4; r8c8<>8

The notation may look formidable, but the AIC is actually not so hard to follow. Here's the current grid so you can follow along:
Code:
+-------------------+--------------------+------------------+
| 6    1238   38    | 2349   7     249   | 5     149    12  |
| 23   5      4     | 1      23    89    | 789   789    6   |
| 12   9      7     | 24568  2456  2458  | 248   148    3   |
+-------------------+--------------------+------------------+
| 139  136    2     | 3579   8     1579  | 37    3567   4   |
| 5    13468  1368  | 2347   1234  1247  | 2378  3678   9   |
| 7    348    389   | 23459  2345  6     | 1     358    258 |
+-------------------+--------------------+------------------+
| 8    1367   1369  | 4567   1456  1457  | 349   2      15  |
| 249  127    19    | 24578  1245  3     | 6     14589  158 |
| 234  1236   5     | 2468   9     1248  | 348   1348   7   |
+-------------------+--------------------+------------------+

Either r8c9 is <8> or there is a {15} locked pair in c9 and b9.
The {15} locked pair means r1c9 is <2> and one of r23c1 is <2> and r9c1 is {34}.
But, the {15} pair also means that r9c8 is {348}.
These things together mean that r9c178 are a {348} locked triple, and r9c46 are not <8>. Thus, r8c4 must be <8> since it is the only remaining <8> in b8.
Since r8c9 and/or r8c4 is <8>, r8c8 cannot be <8>.
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keith



Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 3355
Location: near Detroit, Michigan, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nataraj wrote:
Thanks, ravel! At least now I understand what susser is trying to say.

I can only guess at the method susser uses to arrive at these conclusions.

In comparison, "Bowman Bingo" at least has a cute name.


Sudoku Susser is using Bowman's Bingo.

Keith
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Asellus



Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 865
Location: Sonoma County, CA, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is also possible to eliminate a couple of <5>s by exploiting that same r9 locked set:

[A]: (5=1)r7c9
[B] from A: (1)r7c9-(1=2)r1c9-(2)r1c2=(2)r23c1
[C] from A & B: (1)r7c9|(2)r23c1-({12}={348})r9c178-(8)r9c46=(8)r8c4
[D] from A & C: (1)r7c9|(8)r8c4-({18}=5)r8c9; r6c9|r8c8<>5

It may or may not be interesting that these <5>s and the <8> don't turn up in the Bingo.
[Edit to remove inappropriate ALS notation.]


Last edited by Asellus on Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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Asellus



Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 865
Location: Sonoma County, CA, USA

PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm... I keep being drawn back to this thing!
Code:
+-------------------+--------------------+-----------------+
| 6    1238   38    | 2349   7     249   | 5     149   12  |
| 23   5      4     | 1      23    89    | 789   789   6   |
| 12   9      7     | 24568  2456  2458  | 248   148   3   |
+-------------------+--------------------+-----------------+
| 139  136    2     | 3579   8     1579  | 37    3567  4   |
| 5    13468  1368  | 2347   1234  1247  | 2378  3678  9   |
| 7    348    389   | 23459  2345  6     | 1     358   28  |
+-------------------+--------------------+-----------------+
| 8    1367   1369  | 4567   1456  1457  | 349   2     15  |
| 249  127    19    | 24578  1245  3     | 6     149   158 |
| 234  1236   5     | 2468   9     1248  | 348   1348  7   |
+-------------------+--------------------+-----------------+

The <2> ER in box 1 is helpful again:

[A]: (1=2)r1c9-(2=8)r6c9-ALS[(8=1)r78c9]
[B]: (2)r1c9-(2)r1c2=(2)r23c1
[C] from A & B: (1)r78c9|(2)r23c1-({12}={49})r8c18-(9=1)r8c3; r8c9<>1
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