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Sep 3 Not Unique?

 
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kragzy



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 112
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:23 am    Post subject: Sep 3 Not Unique? Reply with quote

I must be going mad. The first time I solved this puzzle it fell apart in 4.5 minutes and required nothing poor than a couple of hidden pairs. Thinking that I must have jagged the solution in error, I had another attempt and reached this stage:

Code:

+------------+------------+--------+
| 2  459 459 | 145 18  58 | 6 3  7 |
| 8  57  6   | 3   57  9  | 1 4  2 |
| 47 1   3   | 2   6   47 | 5 9  8 |
+------------+------------+--------+
| 3  8   1   | 6   9   25 | 7 25 4 |
| 9  457 457 | 8   257 1  | 3 25 6 |
| 6  257 257 | 57  4   3  | 9 8  1 |
+------------+------------+--------+
| 1  249 249 | 45  25  6  | 8 7  3 |
| 47 6   8   | 9   3   47 | 2 1  5 |
| 5  3   27  | 17  18  28 | 4 6  9 |
+------------+------------+--------+


Look at R3C1, R3C6, R8C1 & R8C6. For the first time ever, a Daliy Sudoku puzzle without a unique solution?

I've re-worked it twice more, carefully watching my steps to check that I am not making unjustifed eliminations, and came to this point both times.

We'll all be rooned, cried Hanrahan!
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prakash



Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 67
Location: New Jersey, USA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kragzy, even with the 47 situation, the puzzle does solve itself quite easily with an XY wing. There must be something here that makes the 47 UR acceptable. One of the reasons why I do not usually use the uniqueness solutions. The next step is the XY wing.
Code:

.---------------.---------------.---------------.
| 2    459  459 | 145  18   *58 | 6    3    7   |
| 8    57   6   | 3    -57  9   | 1    4    2   |
| 47   1    3   | 2    6    47  | 5    9    8   |
:---------------+---------------+---------------:
| 3    8    1   | 6    9    25  | 7    25   4   |
| 9    457  457 | 8    257  1   | 3    25   6   |
| 6    257  257 | 57   4    3   | 9    8    1   |
:---------------+---------------+---------------:
| 1    249  249 | 45   *25  6   | 8    7    3   |
| 47   6    8   | 9    3    47  | 2    1    5   |
| 5    3    27  | 17   18   *28 | 4    6    9   |
'---------------'---------------'---------------'
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tlanglet



Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 2468
Location: Northern California Foothills

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A UR is confined to two rows, two columns and two boxes. In this situation the <47> bivalues are in four boxes. No harm, no foul.

I also found a one step xy-wing solution.

Ted
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kragzy



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 112
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahhhh, thanks folks. I was wrong - I use uniqueness solutions so rarely that I had forgotten about the TWO BOXES ONLY rule. In fact to prove it to myself, I went back and deliberately put the 4s and 7s the other way around and sure enough, the puzzle did not solve.

I was right about one thing though - I am going mad. Confused
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Marty R.



Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alternatively, in kragzy's grid, a W-Wing on the 57s in boxes 25 will finish things off.
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tlanglet



Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 2468
Location: Northern California Foothills

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kragzy wrote:


I was right about one thing though - I am going mad. Confused


Welcome to my world! Why else would we play Sudoku?

Ted
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daj95376



Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 3854

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:
 +-----------------------------------------------------+
 |  2    459  459  |  145  18   58   |  6    3    7    |
 |  8    57   6    |  3    57   9    |  1    4    2    |
 |  47   1    3    |  2    6    47   |  5    9    8    |
 |-----------------+-----------------+-----------------|
 |  3    8    1    |  6    9    25   |  7    25   4    |
 |  9    457  457  |  8    257  1    |  3    25   6    |
 |  6    257  257  |  57   4    3    |  9    8    1    |
 |-----------------+-----------------+-----------------|
 |  1    249  249  |  45   25   6    |  8    7    3    |
 |  47   6    8    |  9    3    47   |  2    1    5    |
 |  5    3    27   |  17   18   28   |  4    6    9    |
 +-----------------------------------------------------+
 # 38 eliminations remain

They don't help any, but there are two overlapping finned X-Wings that eliminate each other's fin cells. The same eliminations can be reached with Colors.

Code:
 finned X-Wing r25\c25 w/fin cell [r5c3] => [r6c2]<>7
 finned X-Wing c25\r25 w/fin cell [r6c2] => [r5c3]<>7
 +-----------------------------------+
 |  .  .  .  |  .  .  .  |  .  .  7  |
 |  . *7  .  |  . *7  .  |  .  .  .  |
 |  7  .  .  |  .  .  7  |  .  .  .  |
 |-----------+-----------+-----------|
 |  .  .  .  |  .  .  .  |  7  .  .  |
 |  . *7 #7  |  . *7  .  |  .  .  .  |
 |  . #7  7  |  7  .  .  |  .  .  .  |
 |-----------+-----------+-----------|
 |  .  .  .  |  .  .  .  |  .  7  .  |
 |  7  .  .  |  .  .  7  |  .  .  .  |
 |  .  .  7  |  7  .  .  |  .  .  .  |
 +-----------------------------------+
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crunched



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am fully bumfuzzled. I am posting this before reading anybody else's solution. This is as far as I can get. There is no solution I can find...
Damnation for moi!

Code:

+------------+------------+--------+
| 2  459 459 | 145 18  58 | 6 3  7 |
| 8  57  6   | 3   57  9  | 1 4  2 |
| 47 1   3   | 2   6   47 | 5 9  8 |
+------------+------------+--------+
| 3  8   1   | 6   9   25 | 7 25 4 |
| 9  457 457 | 8   257 1  | 3 25 6 |
| 6  257 257 | 57  4   3  | 9 8  1 |
+------------+------------+--------+
| 1  249 249 | 45  25  6  | 8 7  3 |
| 47 6   8   | 9   3   47 | 2 1  5 |
| 5  3   27  | 17  18  28 | 4 6  9 |
+------------+------------+--------+

Play this puzzle online at the Daily Sudoku site
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sdq_pete



Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 119
Location: Rotterdam, NL

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crunched wrote:
I am posting this before reading anybody else's solution.

Not sure whether you picked this up from the foregoing, but: XY 457, pivot at R7C4...

Peter
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Captain Pete



Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 55
Location: Oley, PA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or, an XY chain beginning with 47 in C1 ending with 74 in C6.
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daj95376



Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 3854

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:
 +-----------------------------------------------------+
 |  2    459  459  |  145  18   58   |  6    3    7    |
 |  8    57   6    |  3    57   9    |  1    4    2    |
 |  47   1    3    |  2    6    47   |  5    9    8    |
 |-----------------+-----------------+-----------------|
 |  3    8    1    |  6    9    25   |  7    25   4    |
 |  9    457  457  |  8    257  1    |  3    25   6    |
 |  6    257  257  |  57   4    3    |  9    8    1    |
 |-----------------+-----------------+-----------------|
 |  1    249  249  |  45   25   6    |  8    7    3    |
 |  47   6    8    |  9    3    47   |  2    1    5    |
 |  5    3    27   |  17   18   28   |  4    6    9    |
 +-----------------------------------------------------+
 # 38 eliminations remain

I agree that the XY-Wing is the way to go. But, consider the (49) UR in [r17c23].

Code:
Either [r1c2|3]=5 or [r7c2|3]=2

[r1c2|3]=5 => [r1c6]=8 [r9c6]=2 [r7c5]=5 [r2c5]=7 [r2c2]=5 => [r1c23]<>5

[r7c2|3]=2 => [r7c5]=5 [r9c3]=7 => Singles to completion

Final note:

Code:
[r1c4]=1 => [r3c6]=4 [r9c4]=7 => [r8c6]=EMPTY
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Asellus



Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 865
Location: Sonoma County, CA, USA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rather than those roundabout forcing chains (which I don't fancy), I prefer to see that 49 UR as follows.

The induced grouped strong link, (2)r7c23=(5)r1c23, forms a 25 "pseudo-cell" that completes a 258 XY Wing:

UR[(2)r7c23=(5)r1c23] - (5=8)r1c6 - (8=2)r9c6; r9c3<>2
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daj95376



Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 3854

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, my first attempt was excessive. How about ...

Code:
[r7c23]=2=[r7c5]-2-[r9c6]-8-[r1c6]-5-[r1c23] => DP [r17c23] => [r7c23]=2
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Asellus



Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 865
Location: Sonoma County, CA, USA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

daj95376 wrote:
How about ...

Well, it's exactly the same thing as that pseudo-cell XY Wing since it eliminates <2>s in both r9c3 and r7c5.

In terms of fixing r7c23 as <2>, I prefer to use a strong link discontinuity rather than refer to some other contradiction in the grid. So, using your route:

UR[(2)r7c23=(5)r1c23] - (5=8)r1c6 - (8=2)r9c6 - (2)r7c5=(2)r7c23; r7c23=2

Placements can always be presented as strong link discontinuities and eliminations as weak link discontinuities. So, those are all the contradictions I need. I like to keep things simple and tidy.

Here, presenting it as an elimination, rather than a placement, is shorter and thus easier to notate and has the advantage of being recognizable as a form of XY Wing. But, it is all the same.

By the way, your original <5> forcing is actually an XY Chain with pincers that eliminate the <5>s in r1c23 and reduce the UR to a Type 4, thus fixing the <2>s in r7c23. It is more conventional to present it in that way.
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tlanglet



Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 2468
Location: Northern California Foothills

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Asellus wrote:
Rather than those roundabout forcing chains (which I don't fancy), I prefer to see that 49 UR as follows.

The induced grouped strong link, (2)r7c23=(5)r1c23, forms a 25 "pseudo-cell" that completes a 258 XY Wing:

UR[(2)r7c23=(5)r1c23] - (5=8)r1c6 - (8=2)r9c6; r9c3<>2


Asellus, a couple of days ago you commented about forming a pseudo-cell here. I believe I understand the logic behind the formation of such an entity, but the scope of what it will "see" is less clear. Is it correct to state that any cell that contributes to the pseudo-cell "is" the full pseudo-cell?

In your example the <25> pseudo-cell "sees" the <258> xy-wing pivot in r1. Another possible solution is with the <25> pseude-cell in r7 thereby forming a <25> subset with r7c5 that deletes <5> from r7c4 and solves the puzzle. Is this a valid operation?

Ted
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Asellus



Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 865
Location: Sonoma County, CA, USA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ted,

Those are good questions... let's see if I can clarify it for you. A bivalue "pseudocell" is just another name for a strong (inference) link between two dissimilar digits. The "psuedocell" name is certainly not necessary and I normally don't use it, which is why I put it in quotes. (I just picked up on it since it was raised recently in other posts.)

Any strong link, to be useful, needs a link from something on one end and a link to something on the other end (and usually both of those links function as weak inference links). In this particular case, the <2>s on one end of the strong link are grouped (in r7 and b7) as are the <5>s on the other end (in r1 and b1).

Using xyz for the XY Wing, the form is (z=x) - (x=y) - (y=z), where "=" denotes the strong links within the 3 bivalue cells and "-" denotes the weak links on the matching digits between the cells. A "pseudocell," however constructed, can replace any (or all) of these bivalues. What this notation does not show are the weak links to the victims between the two z digits (the "pincers"). So, to make it complete, we can write it as a complete loop:
victim<z>s - (z=x) - (x=y) - (y=z) - victim<z>s

For the pseudocell to work ... here, let's say it's in the place of the (z=x) cell ... the weak links on both sides need to be valid. Taking the "x" part, which is <5> in this case, the grouped <5>s can form a weak link to a <5> (or other grouped <5>s, even) provided it shares box 1 or row 1. In this case, the pivot <5> is in row 1; so all is fine.

The "z" part is the <2>s. Note that there are actually two victims: r9c3 and r7c5. The grouped <2>s of the pseudocell can form weak links to a <2> provided that it shares box 7 or row 7. r9c3 shares box 7 and r7c5 shares row 7. Both of these victims also form weak links with the other pincer in r9c6, the "(y=z)" cell, as required (i.e., they are mutual peers of the pincer <2>s, one of which is single and one of which is grouped).

I hope this detailed explanation clarifies things for you. There is no valid elimination of <5> from r7c5 for two reasons: (1) the XY Wing-type structure here has <2>s as pincers, not <5>s; and (2) the <5> in r7c5 cannot "see" the pseudocell grouped <5>s in any case.
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