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		nataraj
 
 
  Joined: 03 Aug 2007 Posts: 1048 Location: near Vienna, Austria
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				 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:24 am    Post subject: sept 13 | 
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				| not very hard, when UR looking at it the right way. | 
			 
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		Mindwarp
 
 
  Joined: 13 Sep 2007 Posts: 25 Location: St. Ives, England
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				 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:52 am    Post subject:  | 
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				| A fairly easy puzzle.  On Draw/Play, first enter all numbers possible without sweep and after that just sweep and eliminate. | 
			 
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		TexCat
 
 
  Joined: 07 Jul 2006 Posts: 32
 
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				 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:07 pm    Post subject:  | 
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				I got stuck here:
 
 	  | Code: | 	 		  
 
+------------+----------+---------+
 
| 23  26  8  | 4  236 5 | 1  9  7 |
 
| 257 267 9  | 1  26  8 | 25 4  3 |
 
| 1   4   35 | 27 237 9 | 6  25 8 |
 
+------------+----------+---------+
 
| 25  1   7  | 9  8   4 | 25 3  6 |
 
| 9   25  6  | 3  1   7 | 8  25 4 |
 
| 8   3   4  | 6  5   2 | 7  1  9 |
 
+------------+----------+---------+
 
| 37  79  2  | 5  49  6 | 34 8  1 |
 
| 6   59  35 | 8  49  1 | 34 7  2 |
 
| 4   8   1  | 27 27  3 | 9  6  5 |
 
+------------+----------+---------+
 
 | 	  
 
Play this puzzle online at the Daily Sudoku site
 
 
What am I missing? | 
			 
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		sdq_pete
 
 
  Joined: 30 Apr 2007 Posts: 119 Location: Rotterdam, NL
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				 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:29 pm    Post subject:  | 
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				The UR on 27 putting 3 at R3C5, presumably. Since we normally don't seem to have to rely on UR's I'm curious if anyone spotted an XY wing or such.
 
 
Peter | 
			 
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		duffy
 
 
  Joined: 13 Sep 2007 Posts: 26 Location: Toronto Canada
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				 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:44 pm    Post subject:  | 
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				Since I learned about UR's (thanks, Keith!) a couple of months ago, I find them interesting and useful. After the previous one for 27's in boxes 2 and 8, there is immediately another one in boxes 1 and 2 on 26's. And for the record, I did not see any wings except for an earlier x-wing on 5's in rows 2 and 4.
 
    I am glad to be back here, after having to re-register since the server  problems a few months ago.
 
   
 
Don D. | 
			 
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		cgordon
 
 
  Joined: 04 May 2007 Posts: 769 Location: ontario, canada
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				 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:03 pm    Post subject:  | 
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				 	  | Quote: | 	 		  | What am I missing? | 	  
 
 
Texcat:  From your grid there's a UR that leaves a 7 in R2C1.  Though when I did it there was another 257 in R4C1 which, according to Keith's UR post made the UR a Type 2. | 
			 
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		lkmckin
 
 
  Joined: 25 May 2007 Posts: 9
 
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				 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:06 pm    Post subject:  | 
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				You can use a finned fish on [2] in cols 1 and 7 to eliminate [2] from r2c2.
 
 
You can use an XY wing to eliminate [5] from r2c1.
 
 
Now, r2c7 is forced to [5] and the rest comes easily after that.
 
 
I hate URs because they assume something additional about the puzzle (that it has a unique solution). | 
			 
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		nataraj
 
 
  Joined: 03 Aug 2007 Posts: 1048 Location: near Vienna, Austria
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				 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:09 pm    Post subject:  | 
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				sure thing, peter.
 
 
from this position
 
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+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+ 
 
| 23      26      8        | 4       236     5        | 1       9       7        | 
 
| 257     25679   579      | 1       267     8        | 25      4       3        | 
 
| 1       4       357      | 27      237     9        | 6       25      8        | 
 
+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+ 
 
| 257     1       57       | 9       8       4        | 25      3       6        | 
 
| 9       25      6        | 3       1       7        | 8       25      4        | 
 
| 8       3       4        | 6       5       2        | 7       1       9        | 
 
+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+ 
 
| 37      79      2        | 5       49      6        | 34      8       1        | 
 
| 6       59      359      | 8       49      1        | 34      7       2        | 
 
| 4       8       1        | 27      27      3        | 9       6       5        | 
 
+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+ 
 
 | 	  
 
an xwing in 5 cols 1 and 7,
 
later on an xy-wing pivot r1c1 (23) with 35-23-25 getting rid of 5 in r2c1 which opens the puzzle.
 
 
might have missed an intermediate step or two but those are the highlights I remember | 
			 
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		Marty R.
 
 
  Joined: 12 Feb 2006 Posts: 5770 Location: Rochester, NY, USA
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				 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:15 pm    Post subject:  | 
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				 	  | TexCat wrote: | 	 		  I got stuck here:
 
 	  | Code: | 	 		  
 
+------------+----------+---------+
 
| 23  26  8  | 4  236 5 | 1  9  7 |
 
| 257 267 9  | 1  26  8 | 25 4  3 |
 
| 1   4   35 | 27 237 9 | 6  25 8 |
 
+------------+----------+---------+
 
| 25  1   7  | 9  8   4 | 25 3  6 |
 
| 9   25  6  | 3  1   7 | 8  25 4 |
 
| 8   3   4  | 6  5   2 | 7  1  9 |
 
+------------+----------+---------+
 
| 37  79  2  | 5  49  6 | 34 8  1 |
 
| 6   59  35 | 8  49  1 | 34 7  2 |
 
| 4   8   1  | 27 27  3 | 9  6  5 |
 
+------------+----------+---------+
 
 | 	  
 
Play this puzzle online at the Daily Sudoku site
 
 
What am I missing? | 	  
 
 
There is a Type 6 rectangle in boxes 1 and 2, with the 26 pairs on the diagonal. The four corners are an X-Wing on 6, so the two bivalue cells must be 6 to preclude the deadly pattern. Then remote pairs on 25 take out the 2 from r2c2, leaving it solved with a 7. I don't know offhand if that finishes the puzzle. | 
			 
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		sdq_pete
 
 
  Joined: 30 Apr 2007 Posts: 119 Location: Rotterdam, NL
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				 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:26 pm    Post subject:  | 
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				 	  | nataraj wrote: | 	 		  an xwing in 5 cols 1 and 7,
 
 | 	  
 
Thanks - I seem not very good at X-wings, or, at least, I think I tend to forget to look for them explicitly and to concentrate on XY and XYZ wings.
 
Peter | 
			 
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		cgordon
 
 
  Joined: 04 May 2007 Posts: 769 Location: ontario, canada
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				 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:34 pm    Post subject:  | 
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				I'm going bonkers with this one. According to Texcats grid (and my solution) there is a UR for 257 on R2C17 and R4C17.  That should make R2C1 a 7 and eliminate the 7 from R7C1 - but it doesn't - R7C1 is the 7.  
 
 
Pls help!! | 
			 
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		Marty R.
 
 
  Joined: 12 Feb 2006 Posts: 5770 Location: Rochester, NY, USA
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				 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:49 pm    Post subject:  | 
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				 	  | cgordon wrote: | 	 		  I'm going bonkers with this one. According to Texcats grid (and my solution) there is a UR for 257 on R2C17 and R4C17.  That should make R2C1 a 7 and eliminate the 7 from R7C1 - but it doesn't - R7C1 is the 7.  
 
 
Pls help!! | 	  
 
 
Craig, the problem is that it is not a rectangle. All the rectangle theories are based on the fact of the rectangle being in just two boxes; the 257 occupies four boxes. With four boxes, there is no "deadly pattern." | 
			 
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		cgordon
 
 
  Joined: 04 May 2007 Posts: 769 Location: ontario, canada
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				 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:16 pm    Post subject:  | 
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				Marty.
 
 
I didn't know that!!  A week ago I thought I was an expert on URs.  I was gonna move on to Medusa Wraps. Then on Monday I found out you can't use 3 triples and a quad in a UR - and now the corners have to be in 2 boxes.  I should stick to naked-singles. | 
			 
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		TKiel
 
 
  Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 292 Location: Kalamazoo, MI
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				 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:34 pm    Post subject:  | 
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				| I'd clear that with the significant other first. | 
			 
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		TKiel
 
 
  Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 292 Location: Kalamazoo, MI
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				 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:56 pm    Post subject:  | 
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				When I got here (a spot similar to Texcat's and nataraj's position) I saw but decided to ignore the <27> UR in hopes of finding something else, so I went hunting for wings.  I missed the (25)(23)(35) with pivot in r1c1 but noticed there was a (23)(35)(25) with pivot in r3c3.  Unfortunately, no exclusions were directly possible with it.  But applying W-wing with coloring logic (I hope) to the XY-wing, the strong links on <2> show that <2> can be excluded from r1c2.
 
 
 
 	  | Code: | 	 		  
 
 *--------------------------------------------------*
 
 | 23B  26   8    | 4    236  5    | 1    9    7    |
 
 | 257  67   9    | 1    26   8    | 25   4    3    |
 
 | 1    4    35   | 27   237  9    | 6    25A  8    |
 
 |----------------+----------------+----------------|
 
 | 25   1    7    | 9    8    4    | 25   3    6    |
 
 | 9    25A  6    | 3    1    7    | 8    25a  4    |
 
 | 8    3    4    | 6    5    2    | 7    1    9    |
 
 |----------------+----------------+----------------|
 
 | 37   79   2    | 5    49   6    | 34   8    1    |
 
 | 6    59   35   | 8    49   1    | 34   7    2    |
 
 | 4    8    1    | 27   27   3    | 9    6    5    |
 
 *--------------------------------------------------*
 
 | 	  
 
 
  One of the cells marked A or B must be 2, because of the XY-wing.  Any cell that sees both can be excluded. | 
			 
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		Asellus
 
 
  Joined: 05 Jun 2007 Posts: 865 Location: Sonoma County, CA, USA
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				 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:49 pm    Post subject:  | 
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				Tracy,
 
 
Your coloring based on the XY Wing is more interesting than you realize.
 
 	  | Code: | 	 		  *--------------------------------------------------* 
 
|#2R3  26   8    | 4    236  5    | 1    9    7    | 
 
| 257  67   9    | 1    26   8    | 2r5  4    3    | 
 
| 1    4    35   | 27   237  9    | 6    2G5  8    | 
 
|----------------+----------------+----------------| 
 
|#2r5  1    7    | 9    8    4    | 2g5  3    6    | 
 
| 9    2g5  6    | 3    1    7    | 8    2r5  4    | 
 
| 8    3    4    | 6    5    2    | 7    1    9    | 
 
|----------------+----------------+----------------| 
 
| 37   79   2    | 5    49   6    | 34   8    1    | 
 
| 6    59   35   | 8    49   1    | 34   7    2    | 
 
| 4    8    1    | 27   27   3    | 9    6    5    | 
 
*--------------------------------------------------* | 	  
 
The <2>s on the ends of the XY Wing are a conjugate pair (strong link).  I've used R and G to mark them, then colored the other conjugates with r and g.  Not only is the <2> at R1C2 eliminated by the rg "trap," but there is a color "wrap" caused by having two "reds" in C1, marked #.
 
 
So, all of the "red" <2>s can be removed and all the "green" <2>s placed.
 
 
(Note: There is no W-Wing type of coloring logic, as discussed recently on another thread, involved here.) | 
			 
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		keith
 
 
  Joined: 19 Sep 2005 Posts: 3355 Location: near Detroit, Michigan, USA
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				 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:52 pm    Post subject:  | 
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				The UR solves it.
 
 
Or, there is an XY-wing followed by an X-wing and then a remote pair.
 
 
Keith | 
			 
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		cgordon
 
 
  Joined: 04 May 2007 Posts: 769 Location: ontario, canada
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				 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:54 pm    Post subject:  | 
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				| I'm into ERs (an advanced technique).  There's one on 5's from C7 that says R4C3 cannot be a 5.  This exposes the UR already alluded to. | 
			 
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		Mogulmeister
 
 
  Joined: 03 May 2007 Posts: 1151
 
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				 Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:59 am    Post subject:  | 
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				Empty rectangles (ER) is a technique that (in my opinion) helps out at the early phase of a puzzle and is a nice visual tool.  Havard put it forward 
 
 
http://www.sudoku.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=3251&start=0
 
 
and on his own board.
 
 
I find these days that I don't encounter them nearly as much and can only conclude that it is because I am making those eliminations with other strong-link based techniques. | 
			 
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		TKiel
 
 
  Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 292 Location: Kalamazoo, MI
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				 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:54 pm    Post subject:  | 
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				 	  | Asellus wrote: | 	 		  | The <2>s on the ends of the XY Wing are a conjugate pair (strong link). | 	  
 
 
  Are you saying that in all cases the end cells of an XY-wing are conjugate pairs?  
 
 
  Or that in this case they just happen to be the end cells of an XY-wing and just happen to be conjugate?  
 
 
  Cuz, I'm having a hard time seeing either one, but it wouldn't be the first time I missed something like that.  I can't think of anything inherent in the XY-wing that precludes them both being <2> and I can't find a simple coloring chain that strongly links them.  The cells are linked only in that we know from the XY-wing that at least one of them must be <2>. | 
			 
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